Discourse #8
Taxes are Illegal
(part 1)

Taxes are illegal? How could that be? People have been paying taxes for more than four thousand years. What is going on here?

The sole basis for determining if an action is legal or illegal comes from answering the following question: Does the action violate individual or property rights? If an action violates any individual's self or property, then it is illegal. If an action does not violate any individual's self or property, then it is legal. It follows that only actions that consist of initiatory force, fraud, or coercion are illegal.

Now look at taxation. Everybody knows that tax collection is backed by physical force. In order for the government to collect taxes from its citizenry, the government has to ultimately rely on weapons and prisons. Why? Taxation inherently violates individual rights. It always violates an individual's earned property.

Simply put, if a man does not pay his taxes, a gun will guide him into prison, period. He is deemed guilty of a criminal offense and punished accordingly. No matter the type of tax--income, corporate, capital gains, sales, property, luxury, or inheritance tax--all tax collection ultimately requires physical force. But the prime evil in any society is the initiation of physical force and its corollary: coercive threats. The only morally and legally justifiable use of force is in self-defense against those who violate individual or property rights.

So, why have taxes? The most common answer is to fund governments: city, state, and federal governments. How, then, can citizens eliminate taxes and still receive government protection: bodily, property, and contractual protection?

The answer, ironically, is simple. But before answering that question, one needs to understand the proper function of government. The sole function of government is to protect the individual-and-property rights of each citizen. Government does this through three agencies:

1. The military--to protect citizens from foreign aggressors
2. Local police forces--to protect citizens from assault and theft
3. Objective-law courts--to protect citizens from breach of contract

This implies that government does not get involved in transportation, education, housing, food, drugs, medicine, health care, the environment, business, communications, or any other area. Government fulfills its purpose by providing bodily, property, and contractual protection only.

What about taxes? Eliminate them--and nearly all the bureaucracies of the federal government. The goal would be to have a:

* Legislative Branch that derives and formulates objective laws only
* Executive Branch that executes the law--but lacks the power to direct society
* Judicial Branch that interprets & applies the law impartially--free of political biases
* Department of Defense that protects national borders using advanced technology
* And local police forces that protect--but never attack--innocent citizens

Yet if taxes were eliminated, how would the government procure operating capital? Through the same mechanism businesses procure operating capital: the free market. Government would be reduced to its proper function of protecting individual rights. And it would be a for-profit organization, somewhat like a retail company or computer manufacturer.

That is the goal. However, to go from current governmental trends to a proper government requires a couple stages. For example, income, corporate, and property taxes can be phased out in favor of a consumption tax, such as a national sales tax. This would end the life-destroying power of the IRS. Then the sales tax can be replaced by user fees, which would be voluntarily paid by citizens who want government protection. Like when a man goes to the store, if he wants a product or service--in this case bodily & property protection--he pays for it.

With citizens paying market rates for protective services, government would transpose from an out-of-control, tax-funded juggernaut to a super-efficient organization that delivers steadily increasing values to society like Wal-Mart or IBM.

_________________________________________________________________

In article <77j702$rb7$1@news.inc.net>,
"Chris Jacisin" <jacisinc@schneider.com> wrote:

> I find it hard to believe that the government would be able to fill me with
> confidence that it would be "super efficient".

Yes, I know. Just look at the history of governments and what they have done to their citizenry and countries; "confidence" and "super efficient" are probably the last words to come to mind regarding government. In fact, every government has collapsed throughout history. This is not very confidence-inspiring.

Yet, change your mind and you will change your life. Likewise, change the financing of government and you will change that government.

_________________________________________________________________

In article <77jg0u$qe6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
Tomhorn5@worldnet.att.net wrote:

> You have a very seriously flawed uunderstanding of the purpose of
> government and of the Constitutional protections afforded to persons and
> property...

> ...Government has many more functions and mandates than you
> cite and the protections afforded to persons and property are not as absolute
> as you seem to percieve them. Remember that the Government can not deprive you
> of your fundamental personal and property rights WITHOUT DUE PROCESS OF LAW...

> ...the government can tax you or restrict your
> rights to act in certain ways by passing laws and courts can also develop laws
> that have effects on personal and property rights.

> Forget your crazy position here, stop your
> whining and pay your taxes.

> GOOD LUCK!
> Thomas C. Legg, JD
> Attorney at Law
> THE REAL ESTATE EXCHANGE LAWYER
> With INVESTOR'S EXCHANGE NETWORK
> A National Network of 1031 QI Lawyers

I've read the U.S. Constitution and reviewed some of its interpretive analysis. And I realize that the function of government--both today and throughout history--has been much broader than what I described in the original post "Taxes are Illegal".

You are right for pointing out that my description of government is much too narrow. But realize that your context is from earth's anticivilization. Mine is from the Civilization of the Universe.

I agree 100 percent with Due Process of Law. The government can infringe on a citizen's property--but only when the citizen is guilty of an objective crime, i.e., violating an individual's person or property.

In earth's anticivilization, the government can tax their citizens and restrict their citizens' right to act by passing laws. This is what happens every day. But in a rational civilization--an Objectivist civilization--no one can control, drain, tax, usurp, destroy, or murder innocent citizens with impunity.

Forget my position here? That is tantamount to saying 66 years ago in Weimar Germany "Just be quiet and let the government do its duty; it knows best". That attitude led to the slaughter of millions of innocent Jews along with many other people.

_________________________________________________________________

In article <77quri$2e7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
suitedd@my-dejanews.com wrote:

> This limitation ONLY exists in your Brave New World of utopian "objective
> law." It doesn't exist in any present or future REAL government.

> I knew it -- the objectivist government is anarchist!
> That is NOT what led to Nazi Germany.

> And to compare the IRS to the holocaust / shoa is the height of historical
> ignorance and arrogance.

> Frank

In the future of life on earth, Due Process of Law can only be used to infringe upon the rights and property of objective criminals such as theives and murderers. Due Process will not be able to infringe upon the rights of political pawns such as Leona Helmsley, Michael Milken, Stew Leonard, and others. Why? Because The Local Group in association with computer geniuses will release advanced object-oriented technologies that will track down and ostracize those who initiate force, coercion, or fraud. People interested in developing or releasing advanced technologies that will boot the criminal mind off planet Earth forever should carefully peruse http://localgroup.8m.com and then contact The Local Group at localgroup@usa.net.

Is Objectivist government anarchist? No. It is just the opposite; Objectivist government provides the protection of individual rights only. Protecting individual rights is the antithesis of anarchy.

Okay, that lax attitude in Weimar Germany over 70 years ago did not lead to Nazi Germany. Hitler, his criminal-minded plans, and his criminal-minded cohorts transmogrified the Weimar Republic into The Third Reich. But remember, Geman citizens voted in Hitler. If cyberspace and The Local Group were available then, Hitler would have been ostracized into oblivion as soon as he began committing crimes.

True, the IRS is better than the Hitler-led/Himler-inspired Nazi Germany. But Nazi Germany comprises National Socialism; the IRS comprises Socialism. Thus, the IRS is only one step away from Nazism. Moreover, if you have ever been targeted/attacked by IRS agents of force, you would know the profound evil that comes from a bureaucracy that is constitutionally empowered to force, coerce, and defraud innocent citizens.

_________________________________________________________________

In article <77r6pl$8st$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
suitedd@my-dejanews.com wrote:

> Tom, the catch is that the unspoken predicate to all of David's
> notes and statements is "in my utopian world of the future, after
> humans have evolved into something different, ...."

> Frank

You're getting very warm... Early in the next millennium Traditional Man will evolve into Advanced Man as revealed at http://localgroup.8m.com. That evolution, which is now underway, will culminate in a tax-free, death-free, and essentially crime-free world right here on this planet. Guaranteed.

_________________________________________________________________

In article <77rg10$g4f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
Tomhorn5@worldnet.att.net wrote:

> Oh, I see now. Your a complete nutcase. I thought this was a serious thread
> about constitutional protections. I am not familiar with the laws or
> governments of any other planets. I've never been to one, but hope you have
> enjoyed your stays there.

> GOOD LUCK!
> Thomas C. Legg, JD
> Attorney at Law
> THE REAL ESTATE EXCHANGE LAWYER
> With INVESTOR'S EXCHANGE NETWORK
> A National Network of 1031 QI Lawyers

Ironically, this thread is among the most important thread about constitutional protection ever to arise on planet Earth. You do not need to be familiar with the laws or governments of any other planets. The essence of constitutional protection for everyone is contained in the following 3 articles:

----- The Constitution of the Universe -----

Article 1) No person, group of persons, or government may initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against any individual's self or property.

Article 2) Force may be morally and legally used only in self-defense against those who violate Article 1.

Article 3) No exceptions shall exist for Articles 1 and 2.

--------------------

By grasping the above constitution, you will see that every innocent man, woman, and child will be supremely protected. Only objective criminals, e.g., theives and murderers, will suffer.

By using your own knowledge, skills, and talents to usher in the forthcoming world of objective law, impartial justice, and valid government, The Local Group will make you wealthy. Furthermore, The Local Group will make you one of the most famous legal players in the history of our world. For more information, email The Local Group at localgroup@usa.net or visit http://localgroup.8m.com for more details.

_________________________________________________________________

In article <23129-36A56493-179@newsd-273.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
cuteguy2@webtv.net wrote:

> i was downsizd last year got severance pay lump sum but it was tax 41%
> it there a way to get some of that back? when i file?

File your complaint at http://www.neo-tech.com/irs-class-action/ along with the hundreds of others who have been harmed by the IRS.

_________________________________________________________________

In article <780aap$ede$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
internationaltax@my-dejanews.com wrote:

> So, David, you're telling me the good news is that if I can make it to that
> time I'll live forever, but the bad news is that I'll be out of a job?

You might become immortal.

If you currently work for the tax man, you can be retrained, for example, as a value-producing businessperson in an area that interests you.

In article <16810-36A3AA22-39@newsd-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
haarli@webtv.net (Lisa Rochwarg) wrote:

> I don't know which poster thinks taxes
> are illegal, but I have no doubt that he
> makes heavy use of all the benefits that
> we all pay taxes toward.

[snipped the ad hominem attack]

> Lisa

Taxes are not only illegal; they are immoral. Why? Because they require the initiation of physical force--and its corollary: coercive threats--against citizens. Forcing and threatening citizens is the prime evil in any society.

Since the government owns or controls the roads, water, air, and airwaves, for instance, I benefit from tax-supported government. Yet in a proper society-- i.e., one fit for rational human beings--government only protects each citizen's person and property. Profit-driven corporations will own the roads, land, water, air, airwaves, and so on.

_________________________________________________________________

In article <22213-36A642E1-27@newsd-244.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
haarli@webtv.net (Lisa Rochwarg) wrote:

> Someone initiated physical force against
> you to make you pay taxes?

> You must be a rowdy. Did you fight fiercely?

> I don't care who owns the damn roads, so
> long as there is equal access, competition
> to keep prices down, no corporate welfare, and unions for those who
> build and maintain them.

> Lisa

Try going against 3000 years of tradition--from Homer to Albert Camu. You, too, will be under attack. You will rapidly acquire a portfolio of "legal" attack documents from criminal minds at the local, state, and federal level.

I was able to prevent armed federal agents from physically assaulting my person and expropriating my property--this time. But who knows what will happen next time...

You sound like you're part Libertarian and part modern Liberal...more Libertarian though. Let me guess: you used to be a modern Liberal until you realized they are dishonest; then you became Libertarian.

_________________________________________________________________

In article <24842-36A7E3FA-7@newsd-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
haarli@webtv.net (Lisa Rochwarg) wrote:

> Let's all be good Libertarians and bring
> back child labor and the sweat shops!

> Wheeee!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Lisa

Let's delimit the government to protecting individual rights--i.e., protecting its citizens from assault, theft, and fraud. Then, with an unhindered marketplace, the geniuses of society--market entrepreneurs--will raise everyone's standard of living while lowering the cost of living. Child labor, sweat shops, and forced privations will vanish.

Then all of us can take a breathtaking ride to stellar wealth, romance, and happiness.

_________________________________________________________________

In article <25216-36A7CBF7-1@newsd-241.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
haarli@webtv.net (Lisa Rochwarg) wrote:

> Don't like unions, huh?

> May you earn the Mexican minimum wage
> for the rest of your life. That's $3.50 PER
> DAY, pal.

> Someday, you'll be there.

> Lisa

Unions are okay under the following conditions:

* They are voluntarily assembled
* Membership remains voluntary
* Corporations cannot benefit from protective "laws" and "regulations" that keep them immune from more-competitive companies

Now that The Local Group has arrived on planet Earth at http://localgroup.8m.com, nothing can stop it from blasting poverty into oblivion. Mexicans, like all other people, will see a boost in income and job satisfaction unlike anything previously known. Hasta Luego poverty! Hola riches!

_________________________________________________________________

In article <36A77F7E.F766E32D@artcraftandforemost.com>,
mschillo <mschillo@artcraftandforemost.com> wrote:

> Notice how the liberals get all excited about "corporate welfare" but have no
> problem giving welfare to some bum laying on a sewer grate. Corporations
> contribute back to society by giving thousands of people jobs and paying taxes -
> a bum on a sewer grate contributes nothing except urine and shit on our
> sidewalks. And nothing can be more worthless than a union. True socialism in
> action. Unions don't allow for individuality or individual excellance. Make
> sure everyone is the same and gets paid the same and make sure that antiquated
> work rules stay in place. And then take money out of the people's pockets for
> doing so.

Let's do away with welfare: both corporate and individual welfare. Let's replace our Welfare State with a Capitalist State.

As for unions, they can arise so long as they are voluntarily assembled and membership remains voluntary. Then, in a free-market environment free of government interference, corporations with unions that are less efficient would fail. They would not be able to run to the government for protective "laws" and "regulations" to keep them in business.

Individuals and society would benefit through improved products, better service, more jobs, higher per capita income, soaring living standards, and a skydiving cost of living.

How, in practical terms, do we accomplish this seeming miracle? Simple. Let the real heroes of society--the market entrepreneurs--work their "magic" without any governmental interference.

_________________________________________________________________

In article <28737-36A9004C-4@newsd-244.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
haarli@webtv.net (Lisa Rochwarg) wrote:

> You really are a [snipped], aren't you
> David?

> But no matter. I have a few dozen Listeria-infested Sara Lee hotdogs
> I'd
> like to sell you. No government inspection/intervention/regulation
> guaranteed!

> Have a nice SICK.

> Lisa

Does this mean you don't like me? Naw... :)

Look, that is why we all have a conscious mind. We, as consumers, could use our minds--i.e., think rationally--and choose not to buy your specially-dipped hotdog-on-a-stick sick products. Moreover, we could choose to buy good-tasting popsicles-on-a-stick instead. Those companies that put out inferior products will then be eclipsed by companies that offer superior goods and services.

Have a nice LICK. ;)

_________________________________________________________________